Transcription

Georgia Tooke: Hi Monica, it’s so good to see you! 

Monica Liu: Yeah you too! It’s good to see you too!

Shae Myles: It’s so lovely to meet you!

ML: Hi! Nice to meet you Shae!

GT: So welcome back to Jiggle n Juice’s ICW! I’m Georgia Tooke, this is Shae Myles, the other half of JnJ! We took a little bit of a hiatus this summer! A lil summer holiday! So we haven’t done one of these for a lil while! But I am so thrilled to introduce our next guest Monica Liu! Monica and I have been friends for, actually, so much longer than we thought we’d been friends for! We were talking about this the other day - it turns out we actually met each other on our very first day of university! Bc we were in the same dorm building, old Poole! Poole residents! But then… so Monica went into Art History and I went into Visual Arts, and we were kind of parallel, we kinda crossed a little bit, we took a few courses together I think! But then this past spring, Monica was working at the Victoria Arts Council and curated a show and I was so honoured that I got to be part of the show. So we got to rekindle our friendship recently! But there’s so many things that I want to talk to you about this episode! If you want you can introduce yourself a little bit, tell us where you are right now in the world and what you’re up to!

ML: Yeah! Thank you so much Georgia! I’m so honoured to be here with you and Shae, I’m so excited about it! So yeah, like you said, I finished my undergrad in Art History at University of Victoria, and then I took a little break, just to work a little bit. And now I’m in the Netherlands! I’m in Europe! I’m going to the Leiden University, but I’m currently living in The Hague, so like, the city of peace and justice apparently! Yeah! Fancy!!

I’m also doing my masters in Art History, but it’s called Arts and Culture here, with a focus on museums and collections. 

SM: Wow! That sounds amazing!! 

ML: Yeah! Thank you!! 

SM: Are you enjoying it?

ML: Umm… I have to say, it’s a little bit different to what I thought it would be. Like, I feel like European academia is quite different from North American ones. I don’t know if you have ever compared this before, but in my opinion, European academia is a little bit more… I wanna say it’s a little bit more elitist. 

SM: Interesting!!! How so? Do you want to elaborate, how so?

ML: Yeah! Well at least I think in the Netherlands, in my opinion. Because the educational system is very different. For what we call a Bachelors degree, they have what maybe, a North American version would be college. But they call it HBO and MBO, those are more skill based “college”, and there are four years, and then after you finish it you just go into the work field. You do not continue studying basically. And then there is university, which you can also go to for your Bachelors degree, but then that is set up for you to go into Masters, that’s kind of a natural progression for people, to go from a university to then go to a Masters degree. And then after a Masters you can continue to go to an internship, work, or a PHD. So, the difference between these two branches, is for HBO and MBO, it’s very practical. So you spend a lot of time working on campus, when you go home you’re done. You don’t have a lot of readings, you don’t have a lot of homework… and then you’re set up for the work field. But for university, I talked to this classmate of mine, she told me that they were taught to write as opaque and as hard-to-understand as possible! In undergrad!

SM: Ohhhh dear! 

ML: Yeah! Yeah, so the whole field is just kinda.. it’s not very healthy.

SM: Yeah that sounds like so draining to have that set as the standard. And it’s actually quite interesting because that is literally what Georgia and I are trying to break down in the art world with Jiggle n Juice, so that’s so interesting that that’s actually being pushed! 

ML: Yeah I was quite suprised when I first got here too, because from what I knew before, the Netherlands is like a very free thinking country. It’s very open. But apparently yeah, in their undergrad they were told to just follow the rules. Like they’re not able to even choose their own research topic if it’s outside the framework that the professor has provided to you. 

SM: Oh my!!! 

ML: Mm-hmm! So I was very very very surprised!

SM: Yeah! No wonder! Oh that’s such a shame that you went with an expectation that wasn’t actually realised. That’s a shame! 

ML: Yeah! It’s not too bad though! Oh sorry I think Georgia wanted to say something!

GT: Oh no no! I was just gonna say, that’s a lot for you to adjust to, too! Like, a whole new place, a whole new country, a whole new way of university that you have to navigate! 

ML: Yeah, I think… it’s just very different. I wouldn’t say… hmmm.. their style is what they’re used to, so when I tell them about what happens in Canada, and what we’re encouraged to think, they are kinda also not super… um… interested in it! They’re just like, oh this is kinda how we do it here! And it’s more highbrow, almost, like it’s more.. yeah! 

SM: Do you think that there’s… is there a part of you that would like… I can’t think of a better word for “rebel” right now, but is there a part of you that wants to counteract that?

ML: Every day! 

SM: Really!! Omg!!

ML: Everyday I’ve kinda been struggling with school recently, because I’m not that kind of person who would want to do something that you’ve told me to do. Like I came to masters school with a very clear goal, like this is what I want to do, and this is what my thesis will be like. Um…. then I was told it was not possible. You have to pick a supervisor that can actually fit with your style. 

SM: That’s such a shame because it’s so far from what art.. or how you would expect to work in a creative field with actually be. 

ML: Yeah, I’m very surprised because I’m doing Arts and Culture. And there’s a lot of people with a fine arts backgorund, and even science backgrounds in my programme. And they’re all kind of like, yeah this is how it goes! It’s always been like this, so I don’t see a problem with that! But I have this conversation every day! Whenever I have the opportunity, I always tell people like, I’m not super happy with it, and I think they’re just kind of tired of me complaining! 

GT: ~It doesn’t have to be this way!!~

ML: I know!! It doesn’t have to be this way! And I know a lot of people are not super happy with it, they’re just not vocal, they’re not very vocal about it which is a shame. 

GT: That’s really interesting, I feel like that kinda has to do with what.. or at least what you were telling me you wanted to focus your studies on in your masters, which was like art in protest. Um, is that still your focus, because I feel like this is kind of like… it could be your protest!

ML: Yeah!! Absolutely! Okay the interesting thing is, I still want to pursue that topic, but because I can’t really find a supervisor, so I kind of have to mould it in a way that I can fit into another supervisor’s field, but still talk about art and protest. So right now I’m doing Museum, Memory and Identity, and how the site of the museum itself can be used as a site of protest, and how that shapes our cultural identity. 

SM: Okay, so is this.. you were saying there that you’re picking something different, but then weaving it…

ML: I’m trying to manoeuvre my way into it!

SM: So what was your initial intentions with the theme of art in protest, what did you want to explore, or what did you want to convey with that?

ML: So initially, I did my undergrad thesis on the Hong Kong protest in 2019. So I was focusing on the power of visuals in eliciting pro-social behaviour, because I have a little bit of background in psychology in undergrad as well. So I was kind of exploring this intersection between art and social sciences. So I had this goal going into masters, and that’s what I kind of wanted to do. Yeah, so it has remained more or less the same, like my area of research is still this particularly topic, it’s just I’m going to change it to a museum setting.

SM: Okay, and you have to do that because that’s…

ML: The institutional constraint!!! Yeah!! It’s really funny because I’m talking about institutional constraints in my thesis, and I’m having to adapt to that while I’m doing my research.

GT: Woah… Thats so meta! I feel like you’re gonna write a really good paper at the end of this, and it’s gonna be published, and everyone is gonna be like woah we’re actually gonna have to change all the schools!! So I think you have really good things coming your way! 

ML: I feel like everybody is just like “ohhh look at this girl coming in trying to change things!!!” Like, I’m sure they’re all kind of weirded out by me! But oh well!

GT: That’s ok! That’s what brings about social change!!! Is the one person who is like “this doesn’t sit right with me!” 

ML: Yeah, it just doesn’t seem right! 

GT: Well, good for you omg, that takes a lot of courage, and you’ve only just started your first year, um just at the beginning of September right?

ML: Yeah it’s only been like a month! 

SM: Oh wow I didn’t know that! Idk why I thought you were quite far into it, but that’s so much to have unfolded in the first month! 

ML: I know!!! Well it’s really intense! Like I don’t know, Shae are you doing a masters?

SM: No, I’m not!

ML: Idk if it’s only… is it only one year too? 

SM: Ummm it depends! I think, I’m not entirely sure, sometimes they’re one year, but I think it depends on the qualification you want to do for. Is yours one year?

ML: Yeah I’m doing a one year!

SM: Right so it’s just super super intense!! 

ML: Yeah it’s really intense, so that’s why I feel like a lot of things have happened, because we were already asked to determine what our thesis, like what our topic is, and then you have to contact supervisors, and you are already doing so many things in the first month of grad school. 

GT: I didn’t know it was only one year! Omg, you have a lot of stuff to do in that short amount of time! 

ML: I was very excited, I was like “ohh I can get it done in one year then I’m ready to go!” But it’s a lot more than I was expecting! 

SM: What is your goal for after you’ve graduated? What do you want to do next? Have you thought that far ahead? Like it’s okay if not!!!

ML: Oh god!!! It’s such a question of the century!! I always feel like I knew what I wanted to do, but right now I’m a little bit unsure. Because moving to a new country, and there’s the language barrier, and when I looked into a lot of the job vacancies here in the Netherlands, they do require you to speak Dutch and English. Just because everybody speaks English anyway, so it doesn’t really give you like an edge. But I would like to work with an artist run centre, or like a non-profit organisation. Because that’s what I did in Victoria, and I really liked that field. 

GT: Oh that’s great! That’s actually a really good segue!! Because I wanted to ask you about your time at the Victoria Arts Council! Um, like how you got into that, what your position was there, and what you’ve learned from it?

ML: Yeah, I’ve actually been with VAC for a really long time, when I first got to Victoria to do my bachelor’s there, I started volunteering for the VAC just as a gallery sitter, because I’m very into art, and then I think after a year of gallery sitting, the previous directors just asked me to become a part-time worker, to just help coordinate volunteers. And then Kagen, who is the current director, came to his position, and he brought me on, almost like as an apprentice, I guess. Like a curator apprentice. So he started giving me more projects to work on, and I curated my own show, and then that wonderful show that we did together, the one about intersectionality, like that was one of my bigger projects. Yeah so I’ve been there for a really long time, I feel like that’s kind of my first serious job! 

SM: I think that’s such a lovely way to progress in the art world. I remember being encourage to go and invigilate for shows and stuff, and that just proves that if you do get your foot in the door with some of the places, it can actually be really worth your while! 

ML: Yeah! Well I think that’s very important… I think artists know as well, that you might star on something very small… like a very trivial role, but you never know where it’s gonna lead you! So don’t think anything is too small, or too below you, or anything like that. Just get out there and try different things, you know! Get to know the people in your community, and you might just build some connections. 

GT: I love to hear that! That is so inspiring! 

ML: Yeah, well I think a lot of the people I met in Victoria, a lot of emerging artists don’t have that kind of high-horse mentality. They’re very down to earth, they’re very willing to just do whatever, get their hands dirty, it was very nice to see! 

GT: Yeah totally! I think one of the detriments of Instagram is that you think that your art community is the whole world, and so you’re like “I wanna get to several thousand followers!! And get several thousand likes!! And be in all these different places!!! And get shows in other places!!” But like, I really think that we need to look more locally, and look at your arts community right in your own city, and make connections with people whoa re in your city. I feel like there’s so much you can find really close by. It’s so much richer, the connections, that you can make in person, here, in your own place rather than some random on Instagram… does that makes sense?

ML: Yeah! Yeah absolutely! And I think you would have a bigger impact on the people around you, just by starting locally, and then reaching out to people from like a wider area, but you can actually make a difference in your own community, I think that’s very important. Yeah of course, it’s good to aim high, and aim at international stage, but I think it’s good to just start locally, and then spread out. 

SM: Definitely! I think that that’s something that’s quite daunting for me. I’ve gotten quite used to being behind a screen and have conversations behind a screen… so I think that real life things are quite daunting… but at the same time I think I’m quite bad for not replying to people, or kinda saying “OH let’s have a conversation about this !!” and then, because you’re behind a screen you don’t really have that. Whereas if you make plans with someone IRL, you kinda have to be there or you’re gonna stand someone or disappoint them because they’ve taken that time out of their day. So I think that there’s like a little bit, for me personally, there’s a two fold there. But I definitely think that it’s so worth it, especially if there’s an organisation or a start-up, or a group of people that you feel share your values, and you think you could bring something really positive, and they could give you something really positive back. I think that’s really important. 

ML: Yeah! Absolutely! Um I actually have a question for the both of you. I know you both do performance art right? Yeah so what do you think that the role of the internet? Do you think it alienates you from your audience? Or what is your take on this?

SM: I think that I feel safer behind a screen… the work that I was doing was quite intimate and provocative and something that I maybe wouldn’t really want to do in front of people. And then I feel like if I can do something, and just just like close my screen, and then … cook some dinner. Like that is really really really attractive to me, rather than maybe doing a performance and then having to go back out to the people as ~Shae,~ and grab a drink. I think that element of it is really exciting, and really alleviates the pain or the pressure… but Georgia has been doing some IRL performances recently!!! 

ML: Yeah!! I saw that! 

SM: I’m sure she’ll have some better insight than me! 

ML: I was just gonna ask you how it went! Because I saw your Instagram, and I saw your performance in real life!! 

GT: Yes!! It’s sooo different! It’s so different! Because like all my performances in university were just video pieces. So I would perform, have the video and then have the TV on the wall. So it was almost like a painting, where I was like “Here’s my thing!! That’s over there!! And you can go look at it and I’m over here!” But then, being in the space, as the character, was so scary! Omg! But I honestly…. it’s incomparable! Like it’s just such a different feeling to be there in the space and have people interact. I think half the time I’m thinking “is this crazy??!!!” But then there are these moments where I feel very in the performance, and people are like IN the performance, and it feels like this really interesting connection that you can kinda go away from and be like “woah!!” like something interesting just happened there!

ML: I’m very curious in terms of how people reacted to your performance in real life. Because I’m very interested in audience and art relationships, so I was just wondering how did they react? Like did they try to talk to you? Did they respect your space, and how did they react?

GT: Well, I’ve done a couple. But the one that had potential for interaction was the one where, at the show Pearlescence, there was an upstairs apartment space that there was a few performance artists in, so we had someone who was topless painting in the bathtub, so she was in the bathroom. And then we had someone  sitting at a table and people could go up and sit, and they would paint the person’s nails, and then have a conversation, so that was like a very interactive part. And then we had another performer who was on this phone, this corded phone, and was like kind of talking, so that one wasn’t really interacted with. And then for one of them, I was writing these little notes, and giving them to people. And it’s just so funny like in a performance space, so many people are like.. “can I interact? Is this…. can I look??” Like at one point I was lying on the bed, and some popped would come into the bedroom and look at me and I would make eye contact with them and they would be like !!!!! “I’m not looking at this crazy bird lady on the bed!! That’s crazy!!!” And then I would look away, and then it was almost like permission for them to look at me again. But it was just like some people would feel like they could not even enter the bedroom. They would kind of glance and be like “oops that is private!! I can’t see that!! And then walk away, and other people would come in and they would have eye contact with me, some people would sit down on the chair and just be with me. One person was sitting there for like five minutes, just to share the space with me. Which I was so surprised by. Because I wasn’t really doing much, like there wasn’t a lot of action. But I was just holding the space, but yeah so interesting. I feel like performance art just gives this space for us to look at people. Because I feel like in our society we walk down the street, blinders on, we’re not looking at anyone, I’m in my own little world, don’t perceive me. 

ML: It’s almost like as an artist you’re also giving the audience a visibility. Like you are interacting with them, and recognising they are there, instead of just being like I’m seeing you as a passive part of my performance. That’s really cool! Yeah, we had a show at the VAC that was based around performance art about two years ago, and what was really interesting was we had this group of performance artists coming together and… this was not planned at all, but during their individual performances, they started to merge, and interact with each other. And they started to perform together, and it was so organic, like it felt very natural, but a lot of the visitors, I could tell they were just very confused. They were like “are you a performer?? can I also join in on this movement???” But yeah, there was something so beautiful about it, it’s just like it’s kind of inviting, you can join them if you want!

GT: Yeah! It’s so enticing! I feel like there’s just something so romantic about performance art. Like I remember… Shae and I, in our early school years, completely fell in love, head over heels, with Marina Abramovic when we first saw her! Of course! I feel like it’s a rite of passage, as a performance artist, but idk… it is just a space where it’s just so different. 

ML: It’s very interesting, because in art and activism, if you look at that field, a lot of the artists who are working in protest are performance artists. They’re not necessarily visual artists. Most of them are actually out on the street doing something, making a statement with their action. So I think that’s just very interesting. It must be because it’s so enticing, like you said, so exciting, and people are just naturally attracted to someone who is making a loud movement, a statement, yeah. It’s very cool!

SM: What do you think the link between that is? Like… performance and protest. Do you think that… it doesn’t matter if you’re an artist if you’re actively participating in a protest are you in some way performing? What do you think the link is between the two there?

ML: Yeah that’s a very interesting question. I was taking a class called Art in Earth - we kind of discussed this, like at what point does a person become an artist activist, or at what point a person is just an activist. And we couldn’t really reach an agreement, but I think it’s mostly subjective. I think it’s just how you position yourself. If you want to identify as an activist, and you don’t consider yourself to be actively producing something that would be considered “art,” then a lot of people would identify with activists. But I think from an outsider’s view, from my point of view as a scholar, I consider a lot of people who don’t consider themselves as artist activists, actually as artist activists! I don’t know if that makes sense!!

SM: Yeah absolutely! I know what you mean!

ML: I think it’s a very blurred line, it’s very interesting to explore for sure, that gray space. 

SM: Do you have a favourite “piece” that would maybe fit into this conversation?

ML: I’m not super well versed in performance art, but during my research on the Hong Kong protest, I have looked up a lot of great artists, and there’s this one person who made this flag to resemble the Berlin Wall, or the Lennon Wall in the Hong Kong protest. So he made this flag that has all the colours of the sticky notes, and then he just brought the flag down and waved it around and joined the group. So that was very moving, and actually, the Hong Kong protest got a lot of attention from artists, which is really interesting to see. It’s a very rich field to talk about art and protest, because they used so many visual elements in their protest tactics. There’s a lot of art that came out of that protest. 

SM: So why do you think that is?

ML: Well the most important thing is globalisation. Because a lot of artists in the Hong Kong protest actually made their paintings referencing classical Western art, it’s very very interesting. So I think their goal is to reach a wider audience, they want to appeal specifically to a Western audience from a democratic country as a sign like “please help us, you would recognise this motif, you would recognise this iconography, so you know what I’m trying to say.” There was a painting that referenced Liberty leading the people, and it was just a strong message, like anyone from a Western context would understand what the meaning is. And hopefully that will elicit action. 

SM: That is so interesting because it’s almost like… that shouldn’t have to be … not that that’s not authentic, but it shouldn’t have to appeal to… or should it? What do you think? Is that an important part of it? Should it appeal to a Western audience? Because I don’t really know much about this at all. So what do you think? Does it dilute the message? Or is that a really important part of making it impactful?

ML: It’s quite complicated. I think a lot of the artists doing those protests are not really concerned with authenticity. Because their goal is to reach as many people as possible via a visual platform. So the situation is, if they use Asian iconography, Chinese people, like people from the mainland, would recognise it, but they wouldn’t do anything. The only people in their mind that would do something are from a democratic country, which would be Northern Americans or Europeans, that kind of population. So I think it’s very tactical. I think it’s more strategic planning of the artists to use these motifs to appeal to people. So yeah, I think it’s almost like you’re at war, and this is the strategy you’re implementing. 

SM: So in essence, it’s really smart then?

ML: Yeah, I think so! Because if you look at the media coverage that came out of that period, a lot of major outlets like CBC, BBC, The Guardian, like the major outlets covered [the protests] so throughly, so it worked. It grabbed global attention, and it definitely worked. But it worked to the extent that it still didn’t escape from the Chinese government’s control. But it definelty got people to talk. 

SM: And so, what you’re saying is that art and visuals had a massive impact on that? 

ML: A very very large impact on that, yeah. So a lot of the visual artists, even journalists had such an impact on it because there’s a lot of photographs that came out of that protest that are just heart-wrenching. It’s just like war in Iraq, or even the visual imagery that came out of 9/11, or Hurricane Katrina, like that kind of level of humanitarian crisis. It will definitely get your attention, so yeah, art definitely played a very major role in that protest. 

SM: And so this kind of conversation, is that the kind of thing that you’re trying to write your thesis about? 

ML: In a very convoluted way, I think yeah! That was the main idea, but I was also wondering how long this effect can last. You know, media moves so fast, the next big thing, they’re gonna grab onto it, so it definitely allows some kind of emotional responses from people, but it didn’t really last that long. So my thesis was kind of exploring how powerful art can be in terms of eliciting this pro-social behaviour, this empathetic response from people. 

SM: Right!! Wow that’s so interesting! 

ML: Yeah! And because of my interest in art and activism, I really want to see is how practical can it be, like what can we actually do with art. 

GT: That’s so amazing!!! I feel like I just got… the whole time you were talking there I just got shivers! I’m like, omg, art can do so much!! And I’m so looking forward to reading your thesis! 

ML: Oh!! Thank you!!! 

GT: Was there anything that you wanted to… I mean normally we have artists plug their Instagram…

ML: Oh I see!! 

GT: Or is there anything that maybe you want people to look at? Like I know I’m going to do my research into the Hong Kong protests in 2019. I would really want to look into that. Are there any action steps that you wanna give people or any last words you wanna say? 

ML: Ummm… it’s a lot of work for someone to look into a topic as heavy as the Hong Kong protests. I know it’s very hard, and with everything going on in the world, like COVID isn’t over, and people are protesting about vaccines, and there’s war still going on in Israel and Iraq… it’s a lot to ask. But I think it’s very important to remember to just be kind. It’s a cliche, but be kind to yourself, and be kind to people around you! And just… don’t be an asshole! Just start small, and support each other. It’s very important for artists to come together to support each other, not to put a peg down on other people. And we’re all in this together. It’s day by day! Yeah! Just be gentle to yourself. 

SM: That’s so lovely!! And so true!! And such a lovely way to round off such an amazing conversation! It’s been such a pleasure to talk to you! And like Georgia says, I wanna do a part two!! I don’t care what the audience says!! This is gonna be part one of our convo with you bc this has been so lovely to learn from you, and hear your perspectives, it’s just so lovely! 

ML: Pleasure is all mine! I’m learning from you guys too! This is so enjoyable! 

GT: Awww!! Thank you!!! Thank you so much Monica for joining us! 

ML: Thank you!